Can You Use Blue Ink on Irs Forms

Post by **bstevlin** » Wed May 09, 2018 4:35 pm

My wife and I just had our 2017 1040 returned because they said it was a photo copy. The form was the original filled out in black ink. DW contacted the IRS. Initially they said they never heard of this but they would put her on hold to investigate. She asked how they would know that it is a photocopy? They said because it looks like a photo copy. The second IRS responder said send the copy back resigned. Dw asked where to resign it, the agent said she was not sure. DW then asked the agent if she could send another hand copy to the IRS signed in blue ink. The IRS agent said that will probably work and that is what we should have done in the first place. Our final question to the agent was to her if their was any regulation or rule that requires a signature in blue ink. She said did not know. DW and I know you do not go to war with IRS so we are going to send in a second copy signed in blue ink and the returned copy signed in blue ink somewhere on the form just to cover all bases.

Post by **livesoft** » Wed May 09, 2018 4:37 pm

i'd mess with the IRS and just send back the return that they returned to you.

Post by **Katietsu** » Wed May 09, 2018 4:40 pm

Please do not send back two copies. That is not helpful and could potentially lead to more correspondence. Just send back one copy.

Personally, I would white out the signature on the one you have, make a copy, sign the copy in clearly different ink, and send that back.

Post by **retiredjg** » Wed May 09, 2018 5:22 pm

I know this is not funny to you, but it is rather comical.

Somehow I've always known to sign in blue ink - doesn't matter if it is an original or a photocopy, the only thing that matters is whether the signature is original. And when all copying was in black and white, it was easy to determine - it it was blue, it had to be original.

Now that there are color copiers, I suppose they might not know if the signature is original or not, but most color copies do look like copies so you can probably get by on that.

Again, I'm sure this is not funny to you, but it is so ludicrous that it does provide some humor to the day. . Poor person at the IRS trying to make sense of the non-sensical.

I'd just sign the same form in blue next to your earlier signature and send it back. I would not use white-out - that may worry them.

Post by **Epsilon Delta** » Wed May 09, 2018 5:40 pm

Of course now that the IRS is allergic to distributing forms quite a few people use photocopies of the blank form.

To make the signature stand out I'd consider signing with ink with some texture. Perhaps one of those metallic glitter gel pens.

Post by **mouses** » Wed May 09, 2018 6:21 pm

I hope whoever processed yours doesn't process mine. I have a really excellent copier, and I noticed when I made a copy of this year's return that the only way I could tell them apart was that the copy was warm.

Post by **mega317** » Wed May 09, 2018 6:38 pm

What is their concern here, that someone is filing a return using your name, and has an electronic version of your signature that they added to the form? I wonder if the IRS "this looks like a photocopy" experts are also "this looks like a forged signature" experts. Has anyone ever gotten a return back for that?

I was searching the turbotax forums about that and came across this marvelous thread:
https://ttlc.intuit.com/questions/37958 ... sign-forms

Post by **bstevlin** » Thu May 10, 2018 1:37 pm

Thanks all for your comments. After I chilled out it took me 5 minutes to retype the form online and print it out. I will resubmit the form signed in blue ink. I will also write a brief thank you to them for alerting us to our error because we have a refund coming. BTW, a few years ago the IRS told us to resubmit our tax forms because the originals got lost. However, they did not hesitate to cash the check we submitted before receiving the new forms from us.

Post by **LadyGeek** » Thu May 10, 2018 9:50 pm

This thread is now in the Personal Finance (Not Investing) (tax form). I also retitled the thread.

bstevlin wrote: ↑Thu May 10, 2018 1:37 pm Thanks all for your comments. After I chilled out it took me 5 minutes to retype the form online and print it out. I will resubmit the form signed in blue ink. I will also write a brief thank you to them for alerting us to our error because we have a refund coming. BTW, a few years ago the IRS told us to resubmit our tax forms because the originals got lost. However, they did not hesitate to cash the check we submitted before receiving the new forms from us.

My bet is that mail is first opened by a mail processing machine, with the checks separated from the content and processed separately. An agent probably gets the paperwork long after the finances are taken care of.

I strongly recommend not mentioning the word "error" in your note, as the interpretation will be "what is the error?" and they'll start looking... I would also avoid mentioning that you have a refund coming. Keep it simple.

Post by **mpsz** » Thu May 10, 2018 10:10 pm

Epsilon Delta wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 5:40 pm To make the signature stand out I'd consider signing with ink with some texture. Perhaps one of those metallic glitter gel pens.

+1. Sign it in glitter glue. I think this agent is being a bit ridiculous and deserves this kind of response.

or blue ballpoint pen on a soft surface

Post by **jabberwockOG** » Thu May 10, 2018 10:26 pm

Among the multiple federal agencies our teams worked with over the years, the IRS was unique for having so much wide spread deep seated incompetence and laziness across the ranks reinforced by an astoundingly inept bureaucracy that supported their stultifying anti-productive organizational processes and culture. It was really something special particularly for an org that can wreak absolute havoc onto an ordinary citizen's life.

Best to quietly comply and get off their radar as quickly as possible.

Post by **bstevlin** » Fri May 11, 2018 12:33 am

LadyGeek wrote: ↑Thu May 10, 2018 9:50 pm This thread is now in the Personal Finance (Not Investing) (tax form). I also retitled the thread.

bstevlin wrote: ↑Thu May 10, 2018 1:37 pm Thanks all for your comments. After I chilled out it took me 5 minutes to retype the form online and print it out. I will resubmit the form signed in blue ink. I will also write a brief thank you to them for alerting us to our error because we have a refund coming. BTW, a few years ago the IRS told us to resubmit our tax forms because the originals got lost. However, they did not hesitate to cash the check we submitted before receiving the new forms from us.

My bet is that mail is first opened by a mail processing machine, with the checks separated from the content and processed separately. An agent probably gets the paperwork long after the finances are taken care of.

I strongly recommend not mentioning the word "error" in your note, as the interpretation will be "what is the error?" and they'll start looking... I would also avoid mentioning that you have a refund coming. Keep it simple.

Thank You. I will do only what is expected.

Post by **inbox788** » Fri May 11, 2018 1:21 am

retiredjg wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 5:22 pm I know this is not funny to you, but it is rather comical.

Somehow I've always known to sign in blue ink - doesn't matter if it is an original or a photocopy, the only thing that matters is whether the signature is original. And when all copying was in black and white, it was easy to determine - it it was blue, it had to be original.

Now that there are color copiers, I suppose they might not know if the signature is original or not, but most color copies do look like copies so you can probably get by on that.

Again, I'm sure this is not funny to you, but it is so ludicrous that it does provide some humor to the day. . Poor person at the IRS trying to make sense of the non-sensical.

I'd just sign the same form in blue next to your earlier signature and send it back. I would not use white-out - that may worry them.

A long time ago, I worked at a place where signatures had to be in BLACK ink because blue ink didn't photocopy well. Blue ink signatures were returned to be signed in black. When in Rome...

FWIW, I'm no CSI, but they could try a drop of oil or alcohol on the signature and see if smears, where as photocopy should not. But that might destroy the signature and they wouldn't be allowed to play scientist. [Had to test it myself, and alcohol did the trick! Water and oil did nothing, and none did anything to the copy.]

BTW, how much was the tax or refund that they worried so much about such a technicality? Was this just an overzealous agent crossing all the t's and dotting all the i's? Or are they going to write you a big check (in which case maybe the concern about fraud may be justified)?

Some Q&A from the blogosphere:

what color ink is needed for for signing, my sister signed in purple - is that acceptable?

https://ttlc.intuit.com/questions/43331 ... acceptable

https://ttlc.intuit.com/questions/30920 ... -it-matter

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde ... 110AAnlR9o

And a few answers from the horse itself:

Complete the form by hand using only black or blue ink. ... complete by hand with pen or typewriter using blue or black ink

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i5500ez.pdf

Your signature (Please use blue or black ink)

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw12.pdf

Signature. The completed Form W-12 must be signed and dated by the applicant. Please use black or blue ink.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/iw12.pdf

My conclusion is that this issue seldom comes up, but when it does, it depends on which IRS form you're filling out as well as the mood of the agent involved and the phase of the moon.

Post by **nisiprius** » Fri May 11, 2018 8:05 am

I've never encountered this. I've certainly never signed in blue ink. I can confirm what inbox788 said: ironically, once upon a time, blue ink was a big no-no because some photocopiers would not copy it--you would intentionally use a light blue pencil to make marks that would vanish in photocopies.

The personal approach I would take would be to ask the IRS if I could just add a blue-ink signature to the existing form, in white space near the signature line. Or, of course, whiteout, then photocopy, then sign.

It's just a guess, but a plausible reason for this could be spot-checking. They might impose this requirement on a randomly selected microscopic percentage of returns, in order to see what what percentage of photocopied signatures are valid, and which are, let's say "authorized good-faith forgeries." And my guess is that the agent said "blue ink" because when the form is returned, it's easier to see visually whether it is different from the printed or photocopied form.

Drifting off into senile maundering, how many people remember Waterman's Blue-Black Ink, "Writes Blue, Dries to Permanent Black?"

Post by **bstevlin** » Fri May 11, 2018 11:24 am

I will add some other comments. The refund was for around $1000.00. Some of the IRS agents were not aware that blue ink could be used a solution to satisfy the issue. Again, I will not submit personal notes of any kind. In late 2016 we purchased a new car from a Nissan dealer with a which is managed by our friend. We paid with a cashiers check from our credit union which is kind of a no/no. He said you are better off and the dealer is safer with a personal check. (Go figure.) He had us sign off on the transaction in blue ink (he said blue is the new black) because it is required by some gov. agency which if I remember was the IRS. I had a get together yesterday with a few of my condo association neighbors. All of them signed their 1040 forms in black ink. I believe our 1040 was randomly flagged by some harried supervisor desparetely trying to prove their value to a mindless bureaucracy. Our BIL who is a government contractor who does work mostly for defense agencies. He did a little work for the IRS. He said by any standard the working conditions are appalling at the IRS.

Post by **The Wizard** » Fri May 11, 2018 11:30 am

jabberwockOG wrote: ↑Thu May 10, 2018 10:26 pm Among the multiple federal agencies our teams worked with over the years, the IRS was unique for having so much wide spread deep seated incompetence and laziness across the ranks reinforced by an astoundingly inept bureaucracy that supported their stultifying anti-productive organizational processes and culture...

The above is a wonderful sentence. You should get a job writing for The Atlantic or The New Yorker...

Post by **bstevlin** » Fri May 11, 2018 1:00 pm

bstevlin wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 11:24 am I will add some other comments. The refund was for around $1000.00. Some of the IRS agents were not aware that blue ink could be used a solution to satisfy the issue. Again, I will not submit personal notes of any kind. In late 2016 we purchased a new car from a Nissan dealer with which is managed by our friend. We paid with a cashiers check from our credit union which is kind of a no/no. He said you are better off and the dealer is safer with a personal check. (Go figure.) He had us sign off on the transaction in blue ink (he said blue is the new black) because it is required by some gov. agency which if I remember was the IRS. I had a get together yesterday with a few of my condo association neighbors. All of them signed their 1040 forms in black ink. I believe our 1040 was randomly flagged by some harried supervisor desparetely trying to prove their value to a mindless bureaucracy. Our BIL who is a government contractor who does work mostly for defense agencies. He did a little work for the IRS. He said by any standard the working conditions are appalling at the IRS.

Post by **trirod** » Fri May 11, 2018 2:35 pm

As a CPA, most of the tax forms I prepare for my clients are filed electronically, but there are still a decent number that get paper filed. I have signed in black ink plenty of times with no issues. The one time I did get a return rejected was when a client was in Denmark around the filing date and for some reason we couldn't e-file the return, so I scanned him the signature page and he signed and scanned it back - but by this time it did look pretty bad. I sent it in anyway but it did get rejected for being a photocopy - I wasn't really surprised.

Post by **The Wizard** » Fri May 11, 2018 2:37 pm

wrongfunds wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 2:10 pm IRS seemed to have processed and and issued refund (both in electronic form) in about a week even though the return was submitted on April 15. I can't complain about their inefficiency.

Good for you.
But that reckless speed is the root cause of all the fraudulent tax returns the IRS and federal attorneys have to deal with...

Post by **SmileyFace** » Fri May 11, 2018 2:49 pm

An older accountant that is in the family said to me after I told them I had gone 100% paperless:
Accountant: "I recommend to all my clients that they should not go paperless; if the IRS ever audits you they will want original copies of your brokerage and bank statements".
Me: "How can the IRS tell if the PDF was printed by me or by my bank/brokerage? It wasn't like my bank statements had a watermark or seal on them."
Accountant: "Good questions, I don't know".

Post by **serbeer** » Fri May 11, 2018 5:25 pm

nisiprius wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 8:05 am I've never encountered this. I've certainly never signed in blue ink. I can confirm what inbox788 said: ironically, once upon a time, blue ink was a big no-no because some photocopiers would not copy it--you would intentionally use a light blue pencil to make marks that would vanish in photocopies.

The personal approach I would take would be to ask the IRS if I could just add a blue-ink signature to the existing form, in white space near the signature line. Or, of course, whiteout, then photocopy, then sign.

It's just a guess, but a plausible reason for this could be spot-checking. They might impose this requirement on a randomly selected microscopic percentage of returns, in order to see what what percentage of photocopied signatures are valid, and which are, let's say "authorized good-faith forgeries." And my guess is that the agent said "blue ink" because when the form is returned, it's easier to see visually whether it is different from the printed or photocopied form.

Drifting off into senile maundering, how many people remember Waterman's Blue-Black Ink, "Writes Blue, Dries to Permanent Black?"

During latest house closings I was involved in, I was specifically asked to sign everything with blue pen

Post by **Miakis** » Fri May 11, 2018 5:41 pm

The IRS is pretty annoying about this. And arbitrary.

As a CPA, I submit a lot of stuff to the IRS, and all my pens are black ink. I've never had one rejected for that, but I did once have one rejected back to a client for having a digital facsimile of a signature - when in fact the signature was just really neat.

I fax in Form 2848 regularly (power of attorney). I used to send it with a computerized signature for my signature, but then once got it rejected for not having my original signature - after having dozens accepted with a digital signature. But they're already accepting a fax, so my signature is already digitized, so why do we care if I drew it in with a pen or with a computer?

In addition, the IRS accepts electronic signatures for E-filing and I can set up electronic signatures for my forms 8879s (permission to E-file). So why the heck do they care if your paper return has an ink signature?

It's no good trying to figure out IRS logic, though.

Post by **mouses** » Fri May 11, 2018 5:44 pm

DaftInvestor wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 2:49 pm An older accountant that is in the family said to me after I told them I had gone 100% paperless:
Accountant: "I recommend to all my clients that they should not go paperless; if the IRS ever audits you they will want original copies of your brokerage and bank statements".
Me: "How can the IRS tell if the PDF was printed by me or by my bank/brokerage? It wasn't like my bank statements had a watermark or seal on them."
Accountant: "Good questions, I don't know".

I recall a thread where Vanguard lost someone's account or all the money in the account or some such, and the client had to pony up paper statements.

Post by **mouses** » Fri May 11, 2018 5:48 pm

inbox788 wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 1:21 am
FWIW, I'm no CSI, but they could try a drop of oil or alcohol on the signature and see if smears, where as photocopy should not. But that might destroy the signature and they wouldn't be allowed to play scientist. [Had to test it myself, and alcohol did the trick! Water and oil did nothing, and none did anything to the copy.]

I'm not about to waste paper and ink trying this out, but does that apply to ink jet? I suspect not.

Post by **SmileyFace** » Fri May 11, 2018 6:01 pm

mouses wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 5:44 pm

DaftInvestor wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 2:49 pm An older accountant that is in the family said to me after I told them I had gone 100% paperless:
Accountant: "I recommend to all my clients that they should not go paperless; if the IRS ever audits you they will want original copies of your brokerage and bank statements".
Me: "How can the IRS tell if the PDF was printed by me or by my bank/brokerage? It wasn't like my bank statements had a watermark or seal on them."
Accountant: "Good questions, I don't know".

I recall a thread where Vanguard lost someone's account or all the money in the account or some such, and the client had to pony up paper statements.

I could do that. I've got a printer.

Post by **inbox788** » Sat May 12, 2018 9:17 am

mouses wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 5:48 pm

inbox788 wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 1:21 am
FWIW, I'm no CSI, but they could try a drop of oil or alcohol on the signature and see if smears, where as photocopy should not. But that might destroy the signature and they wouldn't be allowed to play scientist. [Had to test it myself, and alcohol did the trick! Water and oil did nothing, and none did anything to the copy.]

I'm not about to waste paper and ink trying this out, but does that apply to ink jet? I suspect not.

No paper was wasted in the running of the experiment. I simply took some out of the recycling bin, which worked better since it provided a dry ink sample. A fresh ink sample might have smeared before drying and would have wasted ink. The chemicals were readily available. In fact, I could have reached for the low concentration H2O2, but didn't plan that study. I didn't have Luminol.

CurlyDave wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 12:57 am I am totally surprised that no one has yet suggested signing in blood...

Don't give them any ideas...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjr2KgUlpfc

Carl53 wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 4:46 am Back in the day, I recall my parents doing the whole return in pencil, including signature.

Lot's of problems with pencil. In a similar way, our kids will wonder the same about our use of pen signatures. They won't understand what all the fuss was about as they click a few buttons on IRS App Version 7.32 every April 15th.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kpmg/2018/ ... 516fb719a9
https://www.pwc.co.uk/issues/futuretax/ ... ystem.html

Can You Use Blue Ink on Irs Forms

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